Talk:Muslims

Infobox image

Recently, I changed the image in the infobox for this article, which was later reverted by @StasiaNote. I did this because the image shown in the infobox is the following painting:

Prayer in Cairo by Jean-Léon Gérôme, 1865

The reason I decided to remove this painting as the depiction for Muslims is primarily because of the artist himself, Jean-Léon Gérôme. Gérôme is infamously known for his participation in Orientalism, even the lead image on that article shows a painting by Gérôme. His article also discusses his Orientalist legacy. By using this image (and only this depiction of Muslims is used in the entire article), Wikipedia risks associating itself with Orientalism, which would violate NPOV.

I certainly recommend replacing the Gérôme painting with a less controversial image. When I removed the painting, I replaced it with the following photograph. I thought it would be the most helpful as:

1. Every person depicted in the image is certainly a Muslim.
2. The location is an area important to the religion of Islam.
3. A diverse group of people are represented in the photo.
4. The people are participating an Islamic ritual.

A crowd of Muslim pilgrims at the Kaaba, Mecca, 2016

If, for whatever reason, this image is also controversial, then I suggest the usage of one of the images in the below gallery.

• 
  Muslim men praying in Indonesia
• 
  Muslim women in Iran during Qadr night.
• 
  Muslim prayer in Damascus
• 
  Eid al-fitr prayer in Zahedan
• 
  Jiangwan Mosque, Yangpu District, Shanghai, China

―Howard • 🌽³³ 19:14, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Not only this but even within Islam illustrations of living beings is very controversial. I agree with the reasons you have listed which favour these selected photographs. The first image capturing pilgrims in Mecca is a great image suitable to be used. I also like the one capturing Muslims praying in Zahedan, as it shows a great amount of Muslims. 58.106.179.154 (talk) 12:28, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I cannot follow you. What do you mean by "risks associating tiself with Orientalism"? Here, the cited definition of the article:

"In art history, literature and cultural studies, Orientalism is the imitation or depiction of aspects of the Eastern world (or "Orient") by writers, designers, and artists from the Western world. Orientalist painting, particularly of the Middle East"

How is the image cultural appropriation by drawing Muslims? VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 16:07, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The painting has been described as Orientalist by various sources. It is also important to note that the painting itself features a topographical inaccuracy which would have the subjects praying in a direction other than Mecca. Gerome was probably not aiming to depict a faithful Muslim prayer here, and we have better images anyway. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:56, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

How is topographical inaccuracy indicating that Gerome was praying something else than faithful Muslims? Would you mind elaborating your point?

Also kindly remind you to respond to my questions. I posed them because I consider them relevant to the discussion. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:59, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I did answer your questions, I gave three citations which state that the painting is an Orientalist work. On the question of topographical accuracy, in Islam, directing oneself towards the Kaaba is an important aspect of prayer. By misdirecting the Muslims to pray to a different direction, it would be an inaccuracy in portraying Muslim prayer. In any case, can I ask why you insistently want this particular painting to be the lead image, despite there being hundreds of other options? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 23:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

This leads to nothing... Please read the questions again, and then answer them. I do not intent to repeat them neither do I intent to work them out for you. Until then, I ignore the rest of your points, since I need my questions to be answered before I can adress the rest. Although I think I clarified the rest of your inquiries in my initial reverting. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 02:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I gave you my answer for why I believe the artwork is Orientalist. The majority of reliable sources describe it as such, and that is enough. If you cannot provide any sources to back up your claim that the work is somehow not Orientalist, then your argument is meritless. Until then, I ignore the rest of your points, which shouldn't matter since you have so far cited no reliable sources to back up your claim that the painting has "symbol value," (outside of the value being that it is an inaccurate Orientalist depiction.) ―Howard • 🌽³³ 02:36, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I never asked you "why" you believe it is Orientalist, but okay. With your tone getting more and more passive aggressive, I will conclude our discussion now: You failed to reach consensus and everything remains as it was. good day Sir VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 03:07, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Question: What do you mean by "risks associating tiself with Orientalism"?

Answer: The artwork is Orientalist, per the cited sources. By presenting an Orientalist artwork as the lead image, the article is thereby presenting a view of Muslims from an Orientalist perspective. This is what I mean by "risks associating itself with Orientalism," because the article is using an Orientalist depiction as its primary depiction of Muslims.

Question: How is the image cultural appropriation by drawing Muslims?

Answer: The artwork was painted by a French non-Muslim artist who has repeatedly made Orientalist works throughout his career. In the case of this painting, it is known that he took artistic license with how he depicted the prayer. Most importantly, the Muslims in the painting are not praying towards Mecca, which goes against normative prayer practice. The image is therefore cultural appropriation since:

1. Gerome was neither Muslim, nor a member of the culture he is depicting.

2. He prioritizes artistic license above depicting the prayer accurately.

Question: How is topographical inaccuracy indicating that Gerome was praying something else than faithful Muslims? Would you mind elaborating your point?

Answer: See Qibla. Muslims traditionally pray towards the Kaaba. In his depiction of Muslims, Gerome did not acknowledge this, or worse, he actively ignored it, thereby showing his callousness towards depicting Muslims faithfully.

Additional statement: Although I think I clarified the rest of your inquiries in my initial reverting

Response: You have so far appealed only to prior consensus and have not addressed any of my arguments or provided any citations which back up your claim that the artwork is somehow not Orientalist. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 15:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your Howardcorn33. This image is extremely problematic and borderline racist and colonialist and should be removed. Clearly a lot of people are against it as there have been many people who’ve tried to change or remove it recently but Venus thinks they’re some authority and can revert everyone’s edits without any consensus even though concencus should now be established that dozens of people find this extremely problematic compared to just one who doesn’t and think they’re the authority Rafnator9 (talk) 17:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Crazy that this is even a topic - of course this painting should have been removed a long time ago. An analogous example would be if the Wiki page for Christians featured an Ottoman miniature from the 15th century showing Christians praying (incorrectly) in Constantinople. Teodorfon (talk) 02:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your Howardcorn33. This image is extremely problematic and borderline racist and colonialist and should be removed. Clearly a lot of people are against it as there have been many people who’ve tried to change or remove it recently but Venus thinks they’re some authority and can revert everyone’s edits without any consensus even though concencus should now be established that dozens of people find this extremely problematic compared to just one who doesn’t and think they’re the authority. It would be most appropriate and appreciated to change the image to a neutral one like the ones that you’ve suggested above Rafnator9 (talk) 17:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

References

Unlisted populations

Why are none of the other countries listed like khazakistan etc? You can even see the percentages for the country itself on its wiki... 173.80.7.142 (talk) 01:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2024

Please list Hindustani language before Bengali language in infobox as it has more than double the total Muslim speakers l1 and l2 combined. Hindustani (includes both registers Urdu and Hindi) is spoken by Muslims of India (specially in North India and every major city of India) and Pakistan. Whereas Bengali is limited to Bengal region. 2404:3100:1453:85AF:1:0:D5A9:E9BD (talk) 07:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Left guide (talk) 11:18, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2024

The Muslim Population has officially passed 2 Billion. According to the very source 3 linked on the population 1.9 number. All stats used are from 2020 or prior. The projections in all the linked sources show that it’d be 2 billion by now. Again the 3rd source for the 1.9 billion number already updated itself to 2 billion and Wikipedia should update the number as well. Thank you. 2601:447:CB80:C1D0:8DD8:6149:7E06:5C5 (talk) 05:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Are there any sources that state the population has passed 2 billion not as a prediction? FifthFive (talk) 06:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Population

The population of Muslims has risen more than 2b. I think it should be updated -

Therealbey (talk) 07:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)